NOT EVEN MATH. BUT HOW DID IT GO? [1. CALL TO ORDER.] [00:00:03] GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO THE CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP. I'LL CALL THIS MEETING TO ORDER. [2.A. Council-Manager form of government.] WE'LL START OUT WITH THE WORK SESSION THAT WE STARTED WITH RICK SIX WEEKS AGO THAT WE NEVER GOT. IT WAS JUST NOW BEGINNING OF SWEATER WEATHER. YEAH. AND WE NEVER GOT FINISHED WITH IT. SO WE'RE GOING TO FINISH IT TODAY. AND IT IS ON THE COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT. SO I'LL TURN IT OVER TO JERRY. GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. MAYOR. MEMBERS OF THE COUNCIL. JERRY BAKER, CITY ATTORNEY, AS THE MAYOR MENTIONED WE ARE JUST FINALIZING THE LAST I GUESS, TOPIC THAT WE DIDN'T GET TO AT OUR RETREAT, WHICH IS COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT PLAN IS JUST TO KIND OF GO OVER FOR ME TO GO OVER KIND OF DO AN OVERVIEW OF THIS TYPE OF FORMAL GOVERNMENT. AND WE'VE GOT SOME JUST ONE, I GUESS, SLIDE AT THE END WITH THE EXAMPLES THAT RICK'S GOING TO CHIME IN AND, AND KIND OF TAKE THE LEAD ON THAT. SO BUT AT ANY TIME YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, JUST FEEL FREE TO STOP ME AS I GO THROUGH THIS PRESENTATION. AND HERE WE GO. SO AS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW THIS FORM OF GOVERNMENT WAS INSTITUTED BY THE CITIZENS OF NACOGDOCHES UPON THE ADOPTION OF THE INITIAL CITY CHARTER IN 1929. HERE'S A COPY OF THE CHARTER. ADOPTED THURSDAY, MARCH 21ST, 1929, TEXAS INDEPENDENCE DAY. WOW. AND AS YOU CAN SEE, PAGE 19 OF THE CHARTER THE TOP OF THE TOP THERE. I HIGHLIGHTED THAT IN THAT RED BOX THERE. I WILL, WE'LL GO AND SEE THE, THE LANGUAGE HERE IN A LITTLE BIT. I'LL TELL YOU AND REPRESENT TO YOU THAT THE LANGUAGE IN THAT BOX THERE MAY BE HARD TO READ IT FOR YOU AT THIS POINT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS IT IS TODAY, WITH ONE EXCEPTION. THERE'S A REFERENCE TO THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS AT THAT POINT. THAT'S WHAT THIS BODY WAS CALLED. NOW IT'S CITY COUNCIL. SO I'LL SHOW YOU THAT IN JUST A MINUTE. SO THE COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT CAN BE DISTINGUISHED FROM WHAT'S REFERRED TO AS A STRONG MAYOR. AN EXAMPLE OF THAT IS THE CITY OF HOUSTON. THE MAIN DISTINGUISHING FACTOR IS THAT SOME OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES ARE ASSIGNED TO THE MAYOR AND A STRONG MAYOR FORM OF GOVERNMENT. WHEREAS THOSE ARE, AS WE'RE GOING TO SEE DELEGATED TO THE CITY MANAGER IN THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT ADOPTED BY THE CITY OF NACOGDOCHES. SO IT WOULD BE A GOOD ANALOGY IS A BOARD OF DIRECTORS IN THE CEO AND A PRIVATE ENTERPRISE ORGANIZATION. SO I'VE GOT THIS LITTLE CHART HERE TO KIND OF SHOW YOU HOW THAT WORKS OR LOOKS LIKE. SO IF YOU THINK OF, YOU KNOW, A, A BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND A CEO AT ANY KIND OF BIG ORGANIZATION, OF COURSE, THE STOCKHOLDERS ARE THE, THE ONES THAT PUT THEM IN PLACE. THE BOARD AND THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS APPOINT A CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER WHO THEN OVERSEES THE EMPLOYEES. LIKEWISE, THE VOTERS ARE THE ONES WHO PLACE THE CITY COUNCIL IN YOUR, IN YOUR SPOTS. AND THE CITY COUNCIL APPOINTS A CITY MANAGER WHO THEN IN TURN OVERSEES AND DIRECTS THE CITY STAFF. I'M GOING TO SAY ONE THING AT THIS JUNCTURE, SINCE YOU HAVE THIS ONE UP. ONE OF THE COMPARISONS I'VE EVEN HEARD IS, LET'S SAY THIS IS GENERAL MOTORS. AND GRANTED, YOU'D BE DEALING WITH UNIONIZED EMPLOYEES, ALL THE REASON MORE NOT TO BUT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS UNLESS IT WAS A CALLED MEETING AND YOU ARE DOING A WALKTHROUGH, A SCHEDULED WALKTHROUGH. YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THEM ON THE SHOP FLOOR. THEY WOULD NOT BE ON THE SHOP FLOOR AT A GENERAL MOTORS FACILITY. SO THERE'S. THAT IS. AND EVEN THEN, IF YOU HAD A UNIONIZED SHOP, YOU WOULD EVEN PROBABLY HAVE CERTAIN PARAMETERS THAT WOULD BE MAYBE ANNOUNCED AND THINGS LIKE THAT. EVEN IF THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE IS COMING TO MAKE A STATEMENT. SO JUST THINK OF IT THAT WAY, KIND OF JUST A DAY TO DAY BUSINESS VERSUS A POLICY FUNCTION. YEAH. AND THAT KIND OF BRINGS US TO THE NEXT POINT. SO IN THIS FORM OF GOVERNMENT, THERE'S A DIVISION OF RESPONSIBILITIES. POLICY IS RELEGATED TO THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS IN THE, IN THE PRIVATE ENTERPRISE AND CITY COUNCIL, IN THE COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT ADMINISTRATION OF THAT POLICY IN PRIVATE ENTERPRISE GIVEN TO THE CEO AND HERE IN THE CITY AND THIS FORM OF GOVERNMENT TO THE CITY MANAGER. SO KIND OF WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE? KIND OF BREAK THAT DOWN A BIT. SO LET'S FOCUS ON THE CITY COUNCIL AS POLICY MAKERS. YOU ARE THE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES OF THE CITY OF NACOGDOCHES. [00:05:03] YOU EACH REPRESENT YOU KNOW, A CERTAIN PORTION OF, OF THE CITY, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE MAYOR WHO REPRESENTS THE ENTIRETY OF THE CITY AND ELECTED BY EACH OF THOSE RESPECTIVE AREAS. YOU ARE THE GOVERNING BODY AND WE'RE GOING TO LOOK, WE'LL LOOK AT THE PARTICULAR OR SPECIFIC PROVISION FROM THE THE CHARTER THAT STATES THAT SPECIFICALLY HERE IN JUST A MINUTE. ONE OF THE ACTS OF THE CITY COUNCIL IS TO APPOINT AND SUPERVISE THE CITY MANAGER. YOU ALSO HAVE THE AUTHORITY IN THE CHARTER TO APPOINT AND SUPERVISE THE CITY ATTORNEY MYSELF. BUT SINCE WE'RE FOCUSING ON THIS FORM OF GOVERNMENT, I'M JUST GOING TO LOOK AT CITY MANAGER AT THIS POINT, BUT BUT THOSE ARE THE TWO POSITIONS I WILL POINT OUT. THOSE ARE THE TWO POSITIONS IN THE ENTIRE CITY THAT THE THE CHARTER DELEGATES SPECIFICALLY TO THE CITY COUNCIL TO DO POINT AND SUPERVISE CITY MANAGER AND CITY ATTORNEY. THE CITY COUNCIL APPROVES THE BUDGET ANY TAX RATE ADOPTS THE ORDINANCES AND ESTABLISHES THE GOALS FOR THE CITY. SO AS I MENTIONED, HERE'S THE SPECIFIC REFERENCE FROM THE CHARTER THAT'S IN ARTICLE FOUR, SECTION TEN. THE THE COUNCIL SHALL ENACT ALL ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS AND SHALL ADOPT ALL REGULATIONS AND, AND CONSTITUTE THE LEGISLATIVE AND GOVERNING BODY OF THE CITY. SO THERE'S STATED VERY SPECIFICALLY. SO I WANTED TO POINT THAT OUT. JUST TO YOU KNOW, MAKE REFERENCE TO THAT AS I, AS I REFERENCE TO IT EARLIER. OKAY. SO CITY MANAGER IS THE ADMINISTRATOR. HE IS APPOINTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL. IT SHOULD BE EVIDENT FROM WHAT I MENTIONED EARLIER. HE SERVES AT THE PLEASURE OF THE CITY COUNCIL, AND WE'LL SEE THAT IN JUST A MINUTE. IN THAT REFERENCE, THE THE CITY COUNCIL HAS THE ABILITY TO HIRE AND FIRE THE CITY MANAGER. ACCORDING TO THE TERMS OF HIS CONTRACT HE IMPLEMENTS THE POLICY ADOPTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL, AND HE IS TO PROVIDE EXPERIENCE PROFESSIONAL ADVICE TO THE CITY COUNCIL. AND HE SPECIFICALLY HANDLES ALL THE ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES OF THE CITY. SO THAT CAN INCLUDE A NUMBER OF THINGS WHICH ARE OUTLINED. AND I'LL SHOW YOU THAT REFERENCE HERE IN THE, THE ORDINANCES OR THE CHARTER IN JUST A MINUTE, BUT THAT CAN INCLUDE APPOINTING AND SUPERVISING THE CITY STAFF, ENFORCING THE ORDINANCES THAT THE CITY COUNCIL PASSES, PREPARING THE BUDGET REPORTS AND THE FINANCIAL ON THE FINANCIAL CONDITION OF THE CITY AND SIGNING ANY DEEDS OR INSTRUMENTS OF CONVEYANCE OF ANY PROPERTY OWNED BY THE CITY. SO HERE'S THAT REFERENCE IN THE CHARTER. AND THIS IS THAT, THAT THAT REMEMBER THAT FROM THE ORIGINAL CHARTER THAT I HIGHLIGHTED AT THE BEGINNING. AS I MENTIONED, THE ONLY CHANGE IS TO THE REFERENCE TO CITY COUNCIL RATHER THAN THE THANK YOU. SO IT SAYS THE CITY COUNCIL SHALL APPOINT A CITY MANAGER AT THE ORGANIZATIONAL ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING OF SAID BOARD OR SOON THEREAFTER AS PRACTICABLE. WHO SHALL BE THE ADMINISTRATIVE HEAD OF THE MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT UNDER THE DIRECTION AND SUPERVISION OF SAID BOARD? AND I FORGOT I DIDN'T PUT THIS REFERENCE IN HERE, BUT I WANTED TO SINCE I REFERENCED IT EARLIER. I WANTED TO POINT THAT OUT TO YOU. UNDER SECTION THREE OF THAT SAME ARTICLE IS STATES THAT THE CITY MANAGER SHALL BE APPOINTED FOR AN INDEFINITE PERIOD AND SHALL BE SUBJECT TO THE DISCHARGE AT THE WILL OF THE CITY COUNCIL. SO AS I MENTIONED YOU HIRED AND FIRED THE CITY MANAGER AT YOUR PLEASURE. ACCORDING TO THE TERMS OF ANY AGREEMENT YOU REACH WITH THAT THAT OFFICE. LIKEWISE, YOU'LL SEE THAT SAME LANGUAGE IN THE PROVISION RELATED TO YOUR HIRING AND FIRING OF MY POSITION AS CITY ATTORNEY. SO ARTICLE FIVE, ARTICLE FIVE, SECTION FIVE SETS FORTH THE POWERS AND DUTIES OF THE CITY MANAGER. AND I DIDN'T PUT ALL THOSE IN THERE, BUT I REFERENCED THOSE TWO SLIDES BACK. SO LET ME GO BACK THERE. SO THAT'S WHAT I WAS REFERENCING IN THOSE FOUR POINTS. BUT AS YOU CAN SEE, IT TAKES UP AN ENTIRE PAGE OF THE CHARTER. I JUST DIDN'T SPECIFICALLY STATE EACH ONE, BUT THOSE ARE THE KIND OF THE ONES, THE BIG ONES THAT ARE POINTED OUT. SO I WANTED TO EMPHASIZE THOSE. SO THIS IS THE PART WHERE, AS I MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING, THAT I'M GOING TO TURN IT OVER TO RICK TO GIVE YOU ANY KIND OF EXAMPLES OF WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? YOU KNOW? OKAY. WE'VE SEEN THE OVERVIEW OF WHAT A COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT LOOKS LIKE, HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO OPERATE. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR DAY TO DAY OPERATIONS? AND IF YOU ALL REMEMBER, WE ALSO HAD RON COX THE PRIOR YEAR COME IN AND DO KIND OF A GENERAL OVERVIEW, NOT SPECIFIC TO OUR CHARTER, [00:10:05] BUT KIND OF GENERALLY HOW IN A PERFECT WORLD. AND I REALIZE THAT'S NOT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN, BUT THAT IT SHOULD BE THE GOAL, AT LEAST BECAUSE THAT'S WHY IT IS ENSHRINED IN AN ORDINANCE THIS WAY. IN TERMS OF ACTUALLY IN A CHARTER AKA CITY CONSTITUTION, BEST WAY. AND WE'VE HAD IT AND IT'S AMAZING. WE'RE NOW ONLY THREE YEARS AWAY ROUGHLY OR GETTING CLOSE TO IT, THREE AND A HALF YEARS AWAY FROM BEING 100 YEARS OF COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT, WHICH YOU CAN ACTUALLY GO BACK HISTORICALLY. AND THIS IS THIS IS KIND OF THE BIG PICTURE PIECE TOO. YOU CAN LOOK AT WHEN COUNCIL MANAGER EMERGED IN THAT. I THINK THAT WILSONIAN ERA AND BECAUSE PREVIOUSLY WHEN YOU GO TO MAJOR METROPOLITAN AREAS, WHAT ARE NOW THE MAJOR METROS, YOU HAD YOU BASICALLY HAD POLITICAL PATRONAGE AND NEPOTISM AND ALL THE ABOVE, AND YOU ACTUALLY HAD ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT WOULD ADMINISTER VARIOUS DEPARTMENTS. AND THE REASON COUNCIL MANAGER EMERGED OUT OF THAT WAS YOU IN, IN, I BELIEVE NEW YORK WAS ONE OF THE EXAMPLES. CHICAGO IS ANOTHER ONE. THE RESPECTIVE ELECTED OFFICIALS WOULD ALSO END UP WITH A DEPARTMENT. SO YOU MIGHT HAVE PUBLIC WORKS. AND THEN THAT GENTLEMAN USUALLY WAS A GENTLEMAN WOULD TURN AROUND AND PROVIDE, YOU KNOW, APPROVED CONTRACTS TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND SO FORTH. AND SO THE WHOLE EMERGENCE OF IT WAS, WAS REALLY TO, TO TAKE IT TO THAT CORPORATE MODEL. AND AGAIN, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES, THEY OPERATE AS PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANIES. SO THAT'S PROBABLY THE BEST. SO THEY HAVE TO PUBLISH THEIR FINANCIALS. THEY CAN'T COOK THOSE FINANCIALS. I MEAN, YOU'VE SEEN INSTANCES WHERE YOU USE ENRON AS AN EXAMPLE. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FINANCIALS AREN'T REALLY THE FINANCIALS. THERE'S IMPLICATIONS BECAUSE YOU HAVE OTHER FUNDS TO BEAR AND THERE'S A FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY. SO IN THE CASE OF NACOGDOCHES, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T THINK WE WERE THE EARLIEST, BUT WE WERE ONE OF THE EARLIEST IN TEXAS IN TERMS OF ADOPTION OF COUNCIL MANAGER. NOW, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR DAY TO DAY? AND I WOULD SAY THIS IS LIKE ANY GOVERNMENTAL SYSTEM. I WORKED IN ONE CITY THAT WAS STRONG MAYOR ON PAPER ADMINISTRATOR. RIGHT? I WORKED IN ANOTHER THAT WAS COUNCIL MANAGER LONG STANDING. A THIRD ONE THAT HAD BEEN. IT HAD BEEN STRONG. MAYOR ADMINISTRATOR. AND THEN THEY ADOPTED A COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT. HOWEVER, THEY LEFT SOME STRANGE VESTIGES IN THEIR CHARTER WHICH BASICALLY IN THEIRS SAID, OKAY, YOU CAN STILL, AS INDIVIDUAL COUNCIL MEMBERS, JUST GO AND VISIT ALL THE DEPARTMENT DIRECTORS. YOU CAN KIND OF TELL YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND TELL THE CITY MANAGER AFTER THE FACT, WHICH KIND OF NEVER FULLY SEVERED WHAT WAS THE STRONG MAYOR FORM OF GOVERNMENT? SO THAT WAS THAT WAS A WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL. SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR DAY TO DAY? SO AND THIS IS IDEALLY, IDEALLY THAT MEANS YOU ALL ACT CORPORATELY, YOU ALL PASS ORDINANCES AND THEN WE TAKE THOSE ORDINANCES. AND THAT IS THE PARAMETERS BY WHICH WE OPERATE THE DAY TO DAY. SO IN A PRACTICAL EXAMPLE, AND HAVING BEEN AT ONE CITY WHEN IT WAS THE FASTEST GROWING IN THE COUNTRY, IT WOULD HAPPEN ALL THE TIME IS OKAY. YOU GET A BUILDING PERMIT, THE BUILDING PERMIT DOESN'T MEET CODE, CODE WHICH THE COUNCIL HAS APPROVED. SO YOU'VE GOT THE APPROVED CODE OF ORDINANCES, ZONING ALL THE ABOVE. OH, THAT. GOT THAT. DIDN'T GET APPROVED. THEY'VE GOT TO RESUBMIT. SO THEN THAT PARTY THEN REACHES OUT TO COUNCIL MEMBERS. AND NEXT THING YOU KNOW, STAFF'S DEFENDING THEMSELVES. NOW THERE WAS A VERY GOOD PRESENTATION AT TML. I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF Y'ALL SAT THROUGH, BUT IT WAS, I THINK, PORTLAND, TEXAS, AND IT WAS ABOUT COUNCIL MANAGER AND ONE OF THE COUNCIL MEMBERS, I THINK THE PRO TEM SAID OR THE MAYOR SAID THEY HAD THE QUESTION COME FROM THE FROM FROM THE CROWD. YOU KNOW WHAT'S WHAT'S THE BEST CASE SCENARIO? BEST CASE SCENARIO ABOUT THIS VERY THING IS THAT STAY OUT. WE DON'T GET IN THE WEEDS BECAUSE BEST THING WE CAN DO IS STICK TO THAT. BECAUSE WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING, EVEN AS A COUNCIL, WE GET DISTRACTED OFF THE DAY, OFF OF THE POLICY ROLL. WE GET PULLED INTO THOSE WEEDS AND THEN STAFF GETS PULLED INTO THOSE WEEDS. AND THEN WHAT ENDS UP GETTING LOST IS MAYBE EVEN ADHERENCE TO THE LARGER POLICY, MEANING WHAT ACTUAL ACTUALLY THE LAW IS. [00:15:03] SO I THINK IT'S, IT'S ALMOST IT HAS TO BE REINFORCED BY YOU ALL AS WELL. AND THE REASON I'M BRINGING SOME OF THIS UP, WE, I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT SOME THINGS AT THE RETREAT. I KNOW WE HAVE ANOTHER ITEM ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT, THE LOBBYING ORDINANCE DISCUSSION. BUT AS OUR GROWTH IS ABOUT TO POP, THESE WOULD PROBABLY BE THE MOST PREVALENT EXAMPLES OF THE TYPE OF THINGS WHERE EVERYBODY WILL BE COMING TO YOU SAYING, OH, I DIDN'T LIKE THE OUTCOME ON THIS AND YOU'RE GOING TO GET MORE OF IT. THIS IS THIS IS NOT JUST A CONSTITUENT. OH, MY WATER BILL IS MESSED UP. THIS IS I DIDN'T GET MY WAY. I WANT MY WAY. AND I AND I'M GOING TO GET MY WAY ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I DON'T CARE WHAT THE ORDINANCE SAYS. I'M GOING TO APPLY PRESSURE. SO I KNOW THAT I KNOW WE'VE GOT MIKE IN THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF OF OUR DEVELOPMENT SERVICES AND ENGINEERING AND HIS OFFICE I KNOW IS ALREADY GETTING SOME OF THAT NOW JUST BECAUSE THEY SAY IT AND THEY SAY IT A LOT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. OKAY. SO THAT WHOLE, THAT WHOLE NARRATIVE, WHAT YOU'LL GET, AND I THINK SOME OF IT'S ALREADY STARTED, BUT WHEN WE HAD THIS ON THE AGENDA PREVIOUSLY, I WAS TRYING TO GET AHEAD OF IT BEFORE IT STARTED. AND, AND IT BECOMES A, A ALMOST PERPETUAL LOBBYING EFFORT. AND SO WHAT IN A BEST CASE SCENARIO, THE DEFAULT IS. YEAH. THANK THANKS FOR THE CALL. I WOULD JUST SUGGEST FOLLOW THE ORDINANCE. IT'S THAT SIMPLE AND WORK WITH STAFF. NOW, IN MOST THE MOST EXTREME EXAMPLES, AND I DON'T WANT TO NAME ANY CITIES, BUT I HAVE SEEN CITIES AND WORKED AT CITIES WHERE THE DEAL IS DONE BEFORE STAFF EVER SEES ANY APPLICATION OR EVEN KNOWS THE DEVELOPERS COMING TO TOWN, MEANING THEY HAVE PULLED THE COUNCIL, THEY EFFECTIVELY HAVE CREATED A WALKING QUORUM BEFORE ANY APPLICATION HAS COME TO CITY COUNCIL OR PNC. NOW, IN ALMOST EVERY SCENARIO, THAT WOULD BE WHETHER YOU HAVE A CHARTER OR NOT, YOU COULD BE STRONG MAYOR ADMINISTRATOR WITH NO CHARTER AND A TOWN OF 2000. THAT WOULDN'T BE A LEGAL SCENARIO, BUT IT HAPPENS ALL OF THE TIME. SO WHERE I SAY THE SYSTEM IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE IN IT, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. YOU HAVE YOUR CONSTITUTION, YOU HAVE YOUR CHARTER. AND TRYING, KNOWING THAT. IF IF YOUR HEART IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND YOU'RE TRYING TO FOLLOW IT, THAT'S THE CLOSEST THING YOU'RE GOING TO GET TO IT. THERE IS NO PERFECT SITUATION. SOMEBODY'S GOING TO SAY, OH, I KIND OF FORGOT ABOUT IT, BUT IT'S WHEN THERE'S A CONSTANT PRESSURE AND INTENT AND THAT BECOMES THE WAY YOU OPERATE. THAT'S WHEN THE ENTIRE CREDIBILITY OF THE COUNCIL MANAGER FORM OF GOVERNMENT JUST KIND OF GOES AWAY. AND AND WITH THAT, IT MIGHT IT MIGHT NOT JUST BE, OH, NEXT THING YOU KNOW, COMING TO THE MANAGER, COMING TO THE MANAGER, IT ALSO BECOMES GOING TO THE BUILDING DEPARTMENT, GOING TO THE ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT AND EFFECTIVELY CARRYING WATER FOR THOSE THAT REALLY DON'T WANT TO FOLLOW THE ORDINANCE. AND I'VE SEEN THIS. I'VE SEEN IT NOW, YOU KNOW, FOR DECADES AT THIS POINT, I DO THINK AS WE'RE ABOUT TO POP ON GROWTH, WE'RE GOING TO GET MORE OF IT. NOW, AS YOU SEE, Y'ALL PROBABLY NEVER APPROACHED BY CHICK FIL A, PROBABLY NEVER APPROACHED BY ALDI OTHER THAN THE A RIBBON CUTTING. WE, WE'VE EVEN HAD SOME COME RECENTLY AND DO PRE-DEVELOPMENT MEETINGS ON MULTIFAMILY THAT WOULD NOT BE SUBSIDIZED. AND THEIR COMMENT HAS BEEN, WOW, Y'ALL DON'T HAVE IMPACT FEES. THAT IS AN INCENTIVE. SO, AND THOSE THAT BUILD IN OTHER PLACES WOULD TELL YOU THAT OUR CURRENT ORDINANCES ARE ACTUALLY NOT THAT RESTRICTIVE. YOU'RE GOING TO GET PRESSURE. AND THE ONES THAT ARE PROBABLY MOST LIKELY PRESSURE, YOU WILL BE THE ONES THAT YOU ALREADY KNOW ON A FIRST NAME BASIS. I HAVE WORKED IN THOSE SITUATIONS WHERE ONCE A PLACE POPS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE BIG NATIONALS COMING IN AND PRESSURING YOU UNLESS IT'S OVER BUILDING RESIDENTIAL. THEN YOU'LL PROBABLY RECEIVE A CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION. AND ALL THE COUNCIL WILL, BUT LET'S JUST SAY IT'S RETAIL. IF IT'S NATIONAL RETAILER RESTAURANT GROUP. THEY BUILD ANYWHERE. EAST COAST, WEST COAST, HOUSTON, DALLAS. THEY COME IN, THEY'VE GOT THEIR ENGINEERS, THEY GOT THEIR PLANNERS, THEIR ARCHITECTS, AND THEY LOOK AT YOUR YOUR CODES. YOU NEVER HEAR FROM THEM. THEY DROP IT IN THE SYSTEM. THEY PAY THEIR FEE. THEY DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THE FEE. AND YOU'RE DONE. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH SOME OF THE ONES I JUST NAMED THAT ARE ON NORTH. THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD WORK. BUT ONCE THE GROWTH POPS, YOU WILL START GETTING OTHER PRESSURE. THAT'S WHAT I TRIED TO KIND OF COMMUNICATE AT OUR LAST MEETING. [00:20:08] HOWEVER LONG AGO THAT WAS NOW A MONTH PLUS AGO. SO I'D BE HAPPY TO. AND THEY WILL WANT YOU TO CARRY THEIR WATER AND MANY TIMES THEY'LL WANT YOU TO GO DIRECTLY TO THOSE DEPARTMENTS IS WHAT THEY'LL REALLY WANT. THEY'RE LIKE, WELL, CITY MANAGER, I'M JUST GOING TO SAY WE'RE FOLLOWING THE ORDINANCE. WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT. PLEASE DO THIS FOR ME. BUT I'VE SEEN IT. I'VE SEEN IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN. AND THAT WAS THE THE ACTUAL REASON TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION AT THE LAST AT OUR AT OUR RETREAT AND ALSO THE LARGER DISCUSSION ON THE LOBBYING ORDINANCE. SO I'LL LET ME JUST ADD SOMETHING TO THAT. AS. JUST RECENTLY, I'D SAY THE LAST. SIX MONTHS, MAYBE NINE MONTHS, LIKE THE EXAMPLES THAT RICK GAVE ABOUT ALDI, ABOUT LANES, ABOUT TRACTOR SUPPLY. YOU DON'T HEAR A WORD OUT OF ANYBODY ABOUT IT. WHAT I HAVE HEARD IS THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE HERE AND HAVE BUILT HERE AND ARE STILL BUILDING HERE THAT ARE NOT GETTING THEIR WAY LIKE THEY DID. THREE YEARS AGO OR TWO YEARS AGO, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY THEY DID IT. THAT'S THE WAY THEY'VE ALWAYS DONE IT. I COULD WALK IN THIS OFFICE BECAUSE OF WHO I AM AND GET IT DONE, PERIOD. IF YOU WANT TO RUN THIS CITY LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT AS WELL JUST BE GARRISON OR CUSHION OR WHOEVER. MIKE'S GOT A PLAN TO WHERE PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO LIKE THE CHANGE, YOU KNOW, AND BUT IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO COME WHERE EVERYBODY IS ON THE SAME PAGE. EVERYBODY PLAYS BY THE SAME RULES. EVERYBODY IS TREATED THE SAME PERIOD. SO THAT'S MY ONLY THING. BUT THEY THINK THEY'RE SOMEBODY AND THEIR FAMILIES LIVED HERE A LONG TIME, AND THEY DID IT THIS WAY A LONG TIME AGO, AND THEY DON'T WANT IT CHANGED. AND, AND HERE'S THE DANGER. WE IF WE END UP IN THAT SITUATION AGAIN, I'VE SEEN IT EVERYWHERE. IT'S NOT JUST NACOGDOCHES. WE AREN'T SPECIAL LIKE THAT. EVERY PLACE THAT HAS DEMAND AND SOMETHING STARTS COMING, YOU WILL HAVE. YOU'LL HAVE THAT ELEMENT. BUT YOU CAN'T OPERATE ON TWO SETS OF APPROVAL BOOKS, TWO SETS OF ORDINANCES. IF YOU DO, IF YOU DENY ONE. BECAUSE WAIT A MINUTE. YOU'VE APPROVED THIS OVER HERE. AND THEIR PLAN SETS ARE SLOPPY AND THEY DON'T REALLY MEET CODE. AND YOU GET A NATIONAL IN HERE AND THEN THEY APPROVE. THEY SUBMIT SOMETHING THAT'S THAT'S BETTER THAN THAT, BUT STILL DOESN'T GET APPROVED. WHAT YOU GOT IS A LAWSUIT WITH A BIG ENTITY THAT CAN COST YOU A LOT OF MONEY. YEAH. AND, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE WE WE ARE HERE TO CREATE THAT LEVEL PLAYING FIELD BASED ON THE POLICY THAT YOU ALL HAVE ADOPTED. AND IT'S ALSO A LOT OF THE THINGS WHERE THERE'S TRANSPORTATION, FLOODING, EROSION, CONFLICTS BETWEEN PROPERTIES. MOST OF THESE ITEMS, NOT ALL OF THEM, MANY OF THESE ITEMS ARE INCLUDED IN THE ORDINANCE. AND THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT THEM AS WE GROW IS TO FOLLOW THE ORDINANCE, SOME OF WHICH WERE NEVER BEING FULLY. AND I THINK MIKE CAN SPEAK TO THAT, NEVER FULLY. BEING APPLIED IN THE PAST, EVEN IF THEY WERE IN THE ORDINANCE. SO SO I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS IF THAT'S OKAY. I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THIS EITHER OR FALLACY THAT WE EITHER HAVE ALL THIS CONTROL OR WE DON'T HAVE I, I CAN SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, NOT FOLLOWING THE ORDINANCES, YOU KNOW, THAT'S TOTALLY, I TOTALLY GET THAT, THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE ORDINANCES THAT YOU REALLY NEED TO HANDLE. ALL. ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND ALL THE DISCUSSIONS. THERE ARE SO MANY DISCUSSIONS GOING ON. BUT WHERE MY QUESTIONS COME IN IS POLICY AND FUNDING. SO THERE'S SO MUCH THAT HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN DECIDED BY ORDINANCE ABOUT OUR POLICIES, WHERE WE'RE HEADED, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO WITH HISTORY, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF THINGS WHERE WE'RE HEADED, PARTICULARLY IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN HEADING DOWN THAT WAY AND PEOPLE WANT TO GIVE US INPUT AND WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU INPUT AND GIVE EVERYBODY INPUT AND MAKE SOME OF THOSE LARGER DECISIONS. SO HOW DOES THAT WORK? THAT'S NUMBER ONE. AND LET ME ASK MY SECOND ONE, WHICH HAS TO DO WITH THE BUDGET. [00:25:04] LAST YEAR WE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF INPUT INTO THE BUDGET. IT WAS JUST KIND OF DONE ALL THE, ALL OF, I ASSUME THE DEPARTMENTS GAVE YOU THEIR BUDGET AND THEN IT WAS PRESENTED TO US AS A, YOU KNOW, YOU ADOPT THIS OR YOU DON'T ADOPT IT AND INCLUDING THE TAX RATE. I KNOW OTHER CITIES THAT ARE COUNCIL MANAGER KINDS OF GOVERNMENT. THEY HAVE MORE INPUT INTO THE BUDGET EARLIER ON. IS THAT SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXPECT THIS YEAR TO HAVE MORE INPUT INTO SOME OF THESE INTO. AND SOME OF THEM MIGHT BE SPECIFIC BUDGET ITEMS, BUT INTO THE BUDGET AS A WHOLE, THAT SEEMS TO BE PART OF COUNCIL MANAGER. YOU KNOW, I WOULD I WOULD DISAGREE THAT THAT THERE'S A MICRO VERSUS A MACRO APPROACH. I WAS AT ONE CITY WHERE THEY HAD 26, MIND YOU, 26 BUDGET MEETINGS OR HEARINGS. YOU HAD QUIBBLING OVER $500 LINE ITEMS. WAS THE CITY BIGGER THAN THIS? THREE TIMES, FOUR TIMES THE SIZE? DID IT ADD VALUE? DID THEY ALSO DID THEY MISS ALL KINDS OF OTHER THINGS? DID THEY GET MAJOR PROJECTS COMPLETED? SO 2026 KNOW THE ANSWER WOULD BE NO. HOW MANY SHOULD WE EXPECT? I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD. I DON'T THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE A SET NUMBER. I THINK WE'VE I THINK WE'VE RUN VERY LEAN. I THINK IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT WE'VE PRESENTED, WE CAN DIVE INTO THOSE DETAILS. BUT DO I THINK THE MICRO APPROACH VERSUS LOOKING AT WHAT THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS ARE. AND THEN COME YOUR OVER UNDER IN THE BIG PICTURE PIECE. NOW THE EACH DEPARTMENT DIVES IN. AND IF YOU WERE TO, IF YOU WERE AND THIS IS WHERE I WOULD SAY, I DON'T KNOW IF, IF MY SCHOOL OF THOUGHT IS THAT IF WE'VE DONE THE BUDGET RIGHT, IF WE'VE APPROACHED IT CORRECTLY, THERE SHOULDN'T BE A LOT OF THE EXCESS FAT THAT YOU WOULD. SOMEONE WOULD SAY, OKAY, THE THIS COULD BE THIS COULD BE CUT. I THINK MOST OF THE DEPARTMENTS WOULD. I'VE GOT A FEW OF THEM HERE. WOULD PROBABLY SAY, OH, WAIT, I DIDN'T GET ALL THOSE ASKS. SO WHAT ABOUT THINGS THAT YOU MAY NOT EVEN KNOW ABOUT INPUT INTO THE BUDGET? WHAT ABOUT ITEMS THAT ARE OF CONCERN TO PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU MAY NOT EVEN BE THINKING ABOUT? ABOUT MAYBE PUTTING MORE EMPHASIS ON ONE PART OF THE BUDGET ANOTHER. SO I'VE BEEN TOLD BY OTHER COUNCIL MANAGER THAT WE SHOULD EXPECT AT LEAST 2 OR 3 WORKSHOPS JUST TO BE ABLE TO AND ASK OUR PRIORITIES IN THE BUDGET. KATHLEEN, I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO THE WEEDS ON A ON A BUDGET AND STAY HERE ALL NIGHT LONG, 2 OR 3 MEETINGS AND TALK ABOUT TICKY TACK STUFF. YOU KNOW, IT IS YOUR CITY MANAGER'S RESPONSIBILITY. OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU THOUGH, HOW MANY BUDGET WORKSHOPS DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD HAVE? NONE. NO, NO, NO, BECAUSE WE HAD OUR MAJOR WORKSHOP JUST ONE HOUR RIGHT BEFORE WE PASSED THE BUDGET. DO YOU NEED. BUT WE COULD. WE COULD HAVE. WE COULD HAVE MORE. I MEAN, WE COULD ADD 2 OR 3. BUT THE QUESTION IS, AND THIS IS THE KIND OF I HATE TO SAY THIS, I DON'T THINK MORE MEETINGS NECESSARILY MAKES A BETTER OUTCOME. IT DOESN'T. NOW YOU COULD HAVE TEN MEETINGS OR YOU COULD HAVE ONE MEETING. YOU COULD HAVE THE SAME RESULT OR YOU COULD HAVE A WORSE RESULT EITHER DIRECTION AT THE END OF THE DAY. I DO THINK IT'S A COMBINATION OF HAVING COMPETENT STAFF GOING THROUGH THEIR BUDGETS, ONLY PROPOSING THE ITEMS THAT ARE EITHER OF NECESSITY OR ARE PART OF YOUR KIND OF YOUR OPERATING PARADIGM. MEANING, YES, IF YOU HAVE PARKS, YES. IF YOU HAVE A RECREATION AND LIBRARY AND OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT, YOU HAVE TO FUND THOSE NOW. THERE MAY BE SOME PEOPLE THAT THINK, OKAY, WHY DO WE DO? WHY DO WE HAVE THIS WHEN WE'VE GOT A POLICE DEPARTMENT? WELL, THE QUESTION IS, DO YOU WANT. OKAY, THAT'S A LARGER POLICY QUESTION, NOT JUST A BUDGETING QUESTION. RIGHT. DO YOU WANT TO JUST BE A POLICE DEPARTMENT WITH A CITY COUNCIL AND A LANDFILL? THOSE ARE THOSE KIND OF. AND THERE ARE SOME CITIES THAT TAKE THAT APPROACH. THEN YOU HAVE YOU HAVE TO ASK THE OTHER QUESTION. DO YOU WANT TO WORRY ABOUT GULF STREAMS LANDING AT THE AIRPORT? SO SO I'M BACK TO THIS IS THIS WOULD, I WOULD SAY, BUDGET GOALS, RIGHT? I WOULD SAY IF WE WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT BUDGET GOALS ON THE FRONT END EVEN MORE. BUT WE, WE DID SET GOALS. WE DID PRESENT IT. WELL, LET ME LET ME JUST BACK UP AND SAY, I THINK GETTING OUR INPUT INTO INTO THE NEXT BUDGET, I THINK WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL. IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE IN A WORKSHOP. IT COULD BE INDIVIDUALLY WITH EACH OF US, BUT GETTING OUR INPUT INTO THE THINGS WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT AND TO THE THINGS WE THINK WE MIGHT WANT TO INVEST SOME MONEY INTO, [00:30:01] I THINK THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL. AND THEN BACK TO THE OTHER PART ABOUT INPUT. HOW DO PEOPLE PEOPLE COME TO ME AS YOU KNOW, AND THEY HAVE SUGGESTIONS AND THEY HAVE THOUGHTS. AND I THINK GIVING YOU INPUT INTO THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY AS WE SET OUR GOALS FOR THE CITY IN THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS THROUGH A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. IT'S, IT'S NOT AN EITHER OR. IT'S NOT 26 MEETINGS OR ZERO MEETINGS. IT'S NOT I THINK WE NEED SOME KIND OF PROCESS THAT WE ACTUALLY HELP TO FRAME POLICY FOR THE FUTURE, PARTICULARLY AT THIS, AT THIS JUNCTURE, BECAUSE WE'RE DOING A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS. AGAIN, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT FOLLOWING THE ORDINANCES. I DON'T THINK I HAVE EVER, IN ALL MY YEARS ON THIS COUNCIL, HAVE EVER COME TO BAT FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S BREAKING AN ORDINANCE. I'VE ASKED FOR CLARIFICATION OR OTHER THINGS, BUT I'VE NEVER DONE THAT. I DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT THAT. BUT I DO CARE THAT THE CITY, THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY ARE INVOLVED IN SETTING OUR PRIORITIES, SETTING WHERE WE'RE GOING TO GO. I WANT TO GET YOUR FEEDBACK. THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN IS ONE OF THE LARGE OPPORTUNITIES, JUST LIKE THE DOWNTOWN PLAN WAS. WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAD PARTICULAR INPUT INTO THE DOWNTOWN PLAN, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I DIDN'T QUESTION IT BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THE DOWNTOWN PLAN IS ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND WHO'S GOT THE MONEY. AND, YOU KNOW, DETAILS LIKE THAT. BUT AS WE GET INTO THE LARGER COMPREHENSIVE PLAN, I THINK WE AS COUNCIL MEMBERS NEED TO PROVIDE INPUT AND THE CITY NEEDS TO THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE NEED. AND THAT TYPICALLY IS HOW THAT THAT PROCESS ROLLS. I MEAN, TRUTHFULLY, I'VE BEEN AT TWO DIFFERENT CITIES WHERE I DIDN'T ATTEND ONE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN MEETING BECAUSE YOU LET THAT IT'S LET EVERYBODY HAVE THEIR INPUT. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR RESPONSE IS. I MEAN, ARE WE GOING TO DO PEOPLE GIVE INDIVIDUAL COUNCIL MEMBERS INPUT? DO WE HOLD OUR OWN? YOU HOLD PUBLIC MEETINGS. OKAY, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN. DOESN'T MEAN THE CITY MANAGER'S TRYING TO HIGHLIGHT WHAT THE THE OUTCOME SHOULD BE. SO YOU GO THROUGH A PUBLIC MEETING PROCESS, YOU SOLICIT OTHER PUBLIC OPINION, YOU LET THAT GO WHERE IT GOES. AND THEN YOU LOOK AT THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPLEMENTABLE, RIGHT? YOU LOOK AT THE THINGS THAT ACTUALLY FIT THE LAND USE. YOU HAVE TO FILTER OUT THE THINGS THAT ARE JUST CHATTER THAT AREN'T EVEN RELEVANT. SO AGAIN, THERE WILL BE A, A, AND I KNOW WE'VE WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS OF APPLYING TO THE G L O THAT WE'LL, WE'LL BE A PUBLIC PROCESS JUST LIKE THERE WILL BE. AND WE HAD A DISCUSSION WITH TECHSITE NORTH STREET DISCUSSIONS AND WHERE THAT PLAN WILL GO, THAT WILL HAVE A SERIES OF PUBLIC MEETINGS WHEN WE GET INTO NORTH STREET. ULTIMATELY, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BUDGET, RIGHT? ULTIMATELY PRESENTING IT TO US, PRESENTING THE BUDGET PLUS, AND WE'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING TRUTHFULLY, WE'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING MATERIALLY DIFFERENT AT ALL WHERE I HAD A BUDGET THAT WAS TWICE THIS. I'LL JUST SAY THIS. AND IN THAT CASE, I HAD A I HAD A LONG STANDING PROBABLY 15 YEAR. CFO, HARVARD EDUCATED ALL THE ABOVE. IT ALSO WORKED AT LARGE PLACES. VERY LARGE PLACES. I DON'T MEAN LIKE 200,000. I MEAN LIKE A MILLION. AND AGAIN, I'VE SEEN BOTH APPROACHES. THE MICRO. LET'S FIGHT OVER $500 HERE. LET'S FIGHT OVER $1,500 OVER THERE. OR LET'S LOOK AT THE LARGER POLICY AREAS. AND ARE WE MEETING GOALS? AND YOU HAVE TO YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS, THIS LAST BUDGET AND THIS LAST FISCAL YEAR. AND. THE AND THE PRIOR ONE, YOU START THEN WE'VE ALREADY STARTED GETTING INTO BONDS GOT TWO TRANCHES OF BOND SALES. WE HAVE A SEPARATE BOND SALE THAT OCCURRED ON THE UTILITY SIDE ON REVENUE BONDS. SO THERE IS DETAIL BEHIND EVERYTHING THAT WE BROUGHT Y'ALL. AND I REALIZE IT'S A LOT TO DIGEST. NOW THE QUESTION IS, ARE Y'ALL SAYING YOU WOULD WANT TO GO DIVISION BY DIVISION SEPARATE? I MEAN, THERE'S A MILLION WAYS TO DO IT. THE QUESTION IS HOW WOULD HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT PRESENTED? WE DO TRY TO RUN THROUGH IT. AND ADMITTEDLY, I'LL SET THE GOALS IN TERMS OF, OKAY, WHY ARE YOU OKAY? ARE WE ASKING FOR WHAT WE NEED? ARE YOU ASKING FOR WHAT YOU. THIS IS NOT A WISH LIST NOW. AND STAFF WOULD TELL YOU. WE DON'T APPROACH IT AS A WISH LIST. THERE ARE OTHER PLACES THAT DO, BUT I DON'T THINK MANY CITIES ARE IN THE POSITION TO TAKE THAT. QUESTION. SO FROM A BUDGETING STANDPOINT, THAT'S THE ONE WE JUST DID WAS MY MY FOURTH PASS THROUGH THIS CYCLE. AND WE'VE DONE IT, I THINK FOUR DIFFERENT WAYS. NOW. THE FIRST YEAR YOU WERE HERE WAS A LITTLE DIFFERENT BECAUSE WE WERE ALL TRYING [00:35:01] TO FIGURE OUT WHERE WE FIT IN. BUT WE WENT DIVISION BY DIVISION MY SECOND YEAR ON COUNCIL AND WE ALL HATED IT. WE HATED IT BECAUSE OF HOW LONG IT TOOK AND HOW MANY DIFFERENT THINGS THERE WERE. AND THEN LAST YEAR OR YEAR BEFORE LAST, WE HAD A DISCUSSION. WE HAD TWO WORKSHOPS, I THINK. AM I RIGHT ON THAT? TWO WORKSHOPS TWO YEARS AGO. BUT THIS LAST YEAR WE HAD AN ENTIRE COUNCIL RETREAT WHERE WE SET GOALS AND PRIORITIES. AND THEN WE HAD THE ENTIRE. WE HAD THE DISCUSSION THROUGHOUT THE YEAR WHAT OUR COMING BUDGET PRIORITIES WERE, AND THEN WE SOLIDIFIED EVERYTHING. AM I MISTAKEN ON HOW THAT PROCESS WENT, ACTUALLY? ACTUALLY, NO. YOU KNOW, IF WE'RE COMPARING IT TO OFFICIAL BUDGET WORKSHOPS VERSUS WHAT THE PRIORITIES ARE, WHAT THE PRIORITIES HAVE BEEN, WHAT SOME OF WHICH ALSO INCLUDE THOSE THAT THE VOTERS HAD VOTED FOR IN TERMS OF IMPLEMENTATION, WHERE WE'VE NEEDED TO SUPPLEMENT. NOW, I WOULD THINK, AND THIS IS JUST ME, I WOULD HOPE, AND THIS IS WHY WE APPROACH IT THIS WAY. IF WE HAVEN'T VETTED IT INTERNALLY IN TERMS OF TRYING TO TRIM SOME STUFF DOWN THAT'S NOT NECESSARY OR MIGHT BE ASKS. I HAVE SEEN CITIES WHERE THE MANAGER GOES, OH, WE'LL LET COUNCIL DECIDE, DO WE NEED 30 TAHOES OR 20 TAHOES? OH, DO WE NEED PLAYGROUND? DO WE NEED ANOTHER PARK OR NOT? DO WE? SO YOU THROW EVERYTHING IN AND THEN YOU GET INTO EXTENDED PROBABLY LEVEL OF DETAIL. THAT'S NOT NECESSARY. THAT STARTS GETTING YOU OUT OF SOME OF THE POLICY PIECE. UNLESS YOU'RE KIND OF POLICING ON THE FLY. SO TO YOUR QUESTION, WHEN WE SET THE, THE PRIORITIES THAT THAT IS EXACTLY WHY WE DID THAT. THAT'S WHY WE DID IT LAST YEAR. THAT'S WHY WE JUST DID IT. AND THEN AS WE AS WE MOVE INTO THIS BUDGET, WE'RE UP. TODD AND I HAVE ALREADY HAD SEVERAL DISCUSSIONS AND HIS FORECASTING PIECE. REMEMBER, WE'VE BEEN FORECASTING THROUGHOUT THE YEAR AND HE'S TRIED TO SHOW WHAT THAT'S GOING TO LOOK LIKE. SO HE'S TRYING TO DO THREE YEAR FORECASTS. THIS IS NOT LIKE OKAY, HERE'S THE BUDGET. THIS IS IT. WE'RE TRYING TO GIVE YOU A HEADS UP. THIS IS THE DIRECTION THINGS ARE GOING. AND THEN TAPPING EVEN INTO UTILITY FUNDS. AND THIS IS THE POINT WHERE YOU'RE EITHER GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE SOME ADJUSTMENTS OR WE CAN'T BUY MORE VEHICLES, OR WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GROW REVENUE IN ANOTHER AREA. SO WE ARE TRYING TO START FORECASTING, BUT WE NEVER QUIT DOING THE BUDGETING PROCESS EVEN. WE'RE LOOKING AT THINGS MID-YEAR. WE'RE LOOKING AT SALES TAX RIGHT NOW. WE'RE LOOKING AT OTT IN CERTAIN DEPARTMENTS. I MAY HAVE MENTIONED THAT IN, IN MY LAST WEEKLY UPDATE. SO, SO I DO WANT TO RESPOND TO CHAD'S. I DON'T LIKE THE HUGE MULTI-DAY WHATEVER. I THINK THAT WAS RIDICULOUS. TWO YEARS AGO, WE ACTUALLY HAD ONE WORKSHOP WHERE WE ACTUALLY COULD GIVE INPUT AND WE CHANGED SOMETHING SUBSTANTIALLY BASED ON THAT INPUT. WE, WE DECIDED TO HELP THE POLICE FORCE AND THAT CHANGED THE BUDGET, THE BUDGET PROPOSAL. AND THEY AND THE CITY CAME BACK WITH A DIFFERENT PROPOSAL LAST YEAR. WE ONLY SAW THE BUDGET ONE TIME, ONE HOUR BEFORE. I'M SAYING NOT THAT I HAVE ANY. I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO GIVE INPUT AND TO GIVE FEEDBACK THAT PEOPLE GIVE US AND THAT I THINK IS REALLY APPROPRIATE. AND AS WE GO, AS WE PROCEED IT'S NOT JUST THE BUDGET, IT'S WE, WE, THE PEOPLE OF NACOGDOCHES NEED TO BE ABLE TO GIVE INPUT ON LARGER QUESTIONS, AGAIN, THE EITHER OR FALLACY. WELL, WE DON'T WANT TO GET INTO MINUTIAE, SO THEREFORE EVERYTHING HAS TO JUST BE DECIDED AHEAD OF TIME. I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. WE DIDN'T SAY EVERYTHING'S DECIDED AHEAD OF TIME. OKAY. WELL, THAT'S MY THAT'S ALL MY I HAD PROMISED THAT I WOULD LISTEN TO PEOPLE AND DO MY RESEARCH, BUT BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, BUT I DO NEED TO DO MY WHEN WE GET INTO AN ENGINEERING PROJECT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE IT ENGINEERED AND, AND I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS VALUE ENGINEERED WHILE WE'RE IN THE PROCESS OF THE PROJECT VIA PUBLIC COMMENT. YEAH. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAS EVER SUGGESTED THAT, BUT I CERTAINLY AM NOT. BUT I'VE SEEN THAT. I'VE SEEN IT WHERE, WHERE THE PUBLIC. OKAY. YOU SHOULD YOU SHOULD BUILD IT THIS WAY. NOT THAT WAY. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE IN THE DESIGN PROCESS. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT A PUBLIC DESIGN. I'M TALKING ABOUT A SEWER LINE OR SOMETHING. I'M GOING TO BE CITY MANAGER. KATHLEEN, I'VE ALREADY GIVEN MY INPUT INTO THIS. DO YOU WANT TO BE CITY MANAGER? IT'S A YES OR NO. QUESTION. IT'S A RIDICULOUS QUESTION. YOU WANT TO ANSWER IT? [00:40:01] NO I DON'T. THAT'S WHERE YOU ARE. GIVING INPUT INTO A CITY MANAGER AND INTO THE CITY'S BUDGET IS NOT THE SAME THING. AND I DON'T LIKE BEING BULLIED. I'M NOT BULLYING YOU. I SAW YOU. DO YOU WANT TO BE CITY MANAGER? OR FINANCE DIRECTOR? YOU AND SAMI? I DO OKAY. ALRIGHT, WELL, JUST GO DOWN TO HUMAN RESOURCES TOMORROW AND YOU CAN APPLY. REALLY? NO ONE REALLY WANTS TO BE A CITY MANAGER WHEN THEY ARE A SMALL CHILD. I'LL JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT. AND RICK, YOU DO KNOW, I DO THINK YOU'RE DOING A GREAT JOB. I HAVE SAID THAT PUBLICLY MANY TIMES, BUT I DO THINK WE NEED INPUT. SO. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OUR OUR RESPECTIVE ROLES. WHAT IS YOUR VISION FOR, SAY, VISION? WE TALK ABOUT THE IDEAL AND THE REALITY IN THE IDEAL WORLD. HOW DOES A COUNCIL MEMBER APPROACH A CONSTITUENT ISSUE? HOW SHOULD WE HANDLE THAT? SO TYPICALLY, IF IF Y'ALL HAVE AN IF THERE'S AN ISSUE, I'LL SEND AN EMAIL YOU CAN SEND AN EMAIL TO, LET'S SAY IT'S TO ME AND THEN I DON'T NECESSARILY YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO COPY HIM. OR MAYBE IT DEPENDS ON THE ISSUE. IT MIGHT BE ONE. YOU SAY, WAIT, THERE'S THERE'S SOMETHING IMMEDIATELY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. IT'S CASES. WE KNOW IT'S CASES. PEOPLE THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIX SOMETHING. IT'S IT'S IT'S A NOT AN EMERGENCY, BUT IT'S ALMOST IT'S NOT INAPPROPRIATE TO GO AHEAD AND SEND AN EMAIL AND COPY ME, SEND ONE A CASE, COPY ME OR COPY ME AND MIKE SO THAT I KNOW RON TALKED ABOUT THIS. THAT'S WHERE THE CITY MANAGER'S OFFICE AND STAFF IN TERMS BECOME THE PIVOT NOW HOW IT GETS DONE. RIGHT? SO HANDING IT, THAT'S WHAT THAT COUNCIL TALKED ABOUT FROM SOUTH TEXAS. IT'S NOT THAT THE INPUT ISN'T PASSED ON, IT'S PASSED ON. AND ONE SPECIFICALLY SAID IT'S PASSED ON. AND THEN HOW IT'S HANDLED THOUGH THAT'S NOT MIKE ROAD. YOU FOLLOW ME. SO IT'S HANDED ON AND IT'S DEALT WITH BY STAFF, BUT HOW IT'S HANDLED THE COUNCIL, UNLESS OTHERWISE YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU HAVE EFFECTIVELY UNILATERALLY, YOU MIGHT HAVE ONE COUNCIL MEMBER. OH, I DON'T LIKE HOW THAT WAS HANDLED. OH, WAIT A MINUTE. WHAT IF IT'S HANDLED ALL THE WAY TO ORDINANCE? ALL THE WAY TO POLICY? SO I DON'T LIKE HOW IT'S. SO THEN YOU'RE BACK IN THE WEEDS AGAIN. SO WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS WITH OUR CONSTITUENTS AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID. WE PASS IT ON. WE MAKE SURE THAT THE MANAGER AND THE RESPECTIVE DEPARTMENT HAS IT, THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE EYES ON IT. THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE CARE OF IT. AT MOST, THEY'LL LET THAT CONSTITUENT KNOW, OKAY, IT'S BEEN PASSED ON, BUT THEY DON'T GO BACK AND FORTH. THEY DON'T CONTINUE TO GO BACK AND FORTH AND GET INTO THOSE WEEDS, BECAUSE YOU WILL GET THOSE THAT CONTINUALLY SAY, WELL, I WANT IT DONE AND I WANT IT THIS WAY. WELL, RESPECTFULLY, THE ORDINANCE SAYS THIS, AND I'M SORRY YOUR FENCE IS IN PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY. I MEAN, IT COULD BE SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WELL, I WANT A DIFFERENT OUTCOME. AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BECAUSE WHAT WILL END UP HAPPENING IS THEY WON'T LIKE THE OUTCOME, AND THEY'LL COME BACK AND FORTH TO YOU AND SAY, WELL, I NEED IT TO. TO BE THIS, I NEED THIS ANSWER. THE ANSWER I WANT, NOT THE ANSWER THAT IS. WHICH WOULD BE WHAT THE ORDINANCE WOULD BE BASED ON. LIKE THE ONLY ANSWER YOU COULD LEGALLY GIVE THEM. AND I THINK JERRY HAS SAID GRACE OVER MANY THINGS LIKE THAT. I HATE TO KICK OVER TO HIM. I KNOW THAT MIKE DOES. AND SO IN THOSE CASES, I DON'T I THINK YOU YOU HAND IT ON AND LET IT YOU HAND IT ON. YOU KNOW, THE STAFF HAS IT. IT MAY BE OKAY. DID EVEN IF IT'S A WEEK. HOW DID THAT WORK OUT TYPE QUESTION. BUT WHEN YOU HAVE THE SAME ONE GOING BACK AND FORTH, BEATING THE DEAD HORSE, THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY ADDING VALUE. THERE'S A POINT IN THERE WHERE THAT CAN ALSO NOT BE AN IDEAL COUNCIL MANAGER SITUATION. SO I HAVE WORKED IN THE SCHOOL WORLD MOST OF MY CAREER, AND I LIKEN IT TO WHEN A PARENT IS IN THE ROOM WITH A WITH THE PRINCIPAL. THEY'RE NOT HAPPY WITH WHAT'S GOING ON. AND THEN IN WALKS THE SUPERINTENDENT. WELL, THE PRINCIPAL DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ANYMORE. THEY'RE. THEIR WHOLE AUTHORITY HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE THERE'S SOMEONE WITH SEEMINGLY MORE POWER IN THE ROOM. THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK. THE PARENT DOESN'T WANT TO TALK TO THE PRINCIPAL ANYMORE BECAUSE THEY'RE IN WITH THE BIG DOG NOW. [00:45:02] WELL, IF THEY COME TO US AND THEN WE DON'T GIVE THE ANSWER THEY WANT, THEY'RE GOING TO KEEP COMING TO US AND NOT TO YOU. AND I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO YOUR JOB, FRANKLY. WELL, IT WOULD ALSO BE LIKE THIS. IT'D BE LIKE SHOPPING. AN ANSWER BETWEEN MOM AND DAD IN SOME WAYS, TOO. I'VE NEVER DONE THAT. AND DON'T EVER DO THAT. SORRY TO INTERRUPT, BUT WE HAVE A HARD STOP AT 515. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. RICK, ARE YOU DONE? I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ME TALKING MORE. EVERYBODY DONE? ARE YOU GOING TO PICK THIS UP IN ANOTHER WORKSHOP? I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND. I'D LIKE IT A LITTLE MORE CLEAR AS TO. DO YOU WANT. SOMEBODY COMES TO ME BECAUSE THERE'S A TRANSITION GOING ON FROM DEVELOPERS THAT HAVE BEEN HERE FOR 50 YEARS, AND THEIR VERSION OF THE WAY THEY DEVELOP IS DIFFERENT THAN THE NEWER VERSION. BUT BUT LET ME SAY THIS, BUT THE ORDINANCE ACTUALLY, IN SOME CASES, THE ORDINANCE HADN'T EVEN CHANGED IN OTHER AREAS. YES, THERE'S BEEN SOME TWEAKS, BUT AND MIKE CAN SPEAK TO THIS. YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IT? WHAT IS THE SEALED ENGINEERED PLAN SET? I MEAN, WE'RE GETTING THOSE. WE HAVE THOSE KIND OF OH, WAIT A MINUTE. I'VE NEVER HAD TO SUBMIT THAT MIGHT BE IN THE ORDINANCE BUT DOESN'T HAVE THE SEAL. AND OKAY, WE'RE ONLY ACCEPTING THEM IF IT'S SEALED BY REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL. AND LET ME FINISH. OKAY. WE'RE IN A TRANSITION. SO THERE'S PEOPLE THAT HAVE ALWAYS DONE BUSINESS LIKE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FOR A LONG, LONG TIME. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, I DON'T QUITE KNOW. THEY COME TO ME AND THEY ASK ME, THEY SAY THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO. WHAT DO I DO? DO YOU WANT ME TO JUST GO TO YOU AND THEN YOU GO BACK TO THEM? THESE ARE FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS, REGARDLESS OF RELATIONSHIP. ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF RELATIONSHIP. YOU KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER SHOULD BE. WE'RE A POLICY BOARD ONE. THIS IS YOUR BUSINESS. SO THAT NEEDS TO GO BACK THROUGH PLANNING AND ENGINEERING. AGAIN IT'S SHOPPING FOR AN ANSWER. IT'S SHOPPING FOR CUTTING COST. IT'S SHOPPING FOR NOT FOLLOWING ORDINANCE. IT IS. AND I'M JUST GOING TO SAY IT. I MEAN, IT NEEDS TO BE SAID. I'VE SEEN THIS. IT'S THE WHOLE REASON GUYS LIKE ME DON'T ENJOY THIS KIND OF STUFF. YOU CAN'T SAY, OKAY, THIS IS WHAT WE'VE ADOPTED. AND YOU SAID IT, FRIEND, NEIGHBOR, BUT HAS A BUSINESS. I WANT IT THIS WAY. BUT WHEN ALDI COMES, I WANT GERMAN ENGINEERING BECAUSE IT'S A GERMAN COMPANY. I WANT THEM TO FOLLOW GERMAN ENGINEERING, NOT NACOGDOCHES. AND WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE'S JUST A LITTLE MORE. THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT GERMAN ENGINEERING, NOT AG ENGINEERING. DO YOU WANT IT RUN LIKE A CORPORATION? IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE. WELL, IF IT IS, WE'RE GOING BROKE. NO, WE'RE NOT GOING BROKE. IT'S. WE'RE GOING BROKE BECAUSE IT WASN'T RUN HISTORICALLY LIKE A CORPORATION. THERE YOU GO. RIGHT. BUT THAT'S WHAT YOU GUYS WERE TELLING US IN THE LAST MEETING IS THAT WE HAVE TWO YEARS LEFT, AND WE DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY BECAUSE OF HOW THE FINANCIAL PARADIGM HAS HAS BEEN FOR SOME TIME. BUT THE TRANSITION THEY'RE HAVING TO MAKE IS THAT 50 YEARS WE'VE DEVELOPED HERE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WE CAN'T EVEN GET IN TO TALK TO SOMEBODY. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. THERE HAS TO BE A LITTLE BIT OF GIVE AND TAKE. IT ALSO AND IT ALSO DOESN'T MEAN THAT I DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER FROM THE ENGINEER. AND I GO STRAIGHT TO THE CITY MANAGER EITHER. IF YOU DO GIVE AND TAKE, THEN YOU NEVER WILL GET TO THE RIGHT. IT'S NEVER THE ORDINANCE IS NOT A NEGOTIATION. OTHERWISE, I WOULD SAY CHANGE THE ORDINANCE. I THINK A TRANSITION FROM A SMALL TOWN TO AN URBAN TOWN IS A TRANSITION THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH. YOU CAN'T. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN JUST GO IN AND SAY, HEY, LISTEN, ALL THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. TOUGH NOOGIES. YOU GUYS MAY LIVE HERE ALL YOUR LIFE. YOU MAY BE BENDS, BUT IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. I'M TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S ALREADY ON THE BOOKS. NEVER BEEN. IT'S JUST BEING ENFORCED. NEVER BEEN. IT'S JUST BEEN ENFORCED NOW. AND EVEN THAT WE ARE BEING VERY, VERY. IS THE WORD. FORGIVING? YEAH. I MEAN, WE WE THIS HAS NOT BEEN A HARD STOP. THIS IS NOT BECOMING DALLAS OVERNIGHT. BUT WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS GET FOLKS TO OKAY, FOCUS ON WHAT THE ORDINANCE SAYS. IF IT SAYS YOU NEED TO HAVE A SEALED SHEET. FLOODPLAIN WISE, BECAUSE WE GET THE COMPLAINTS FROM COUNCIL MEMBERS WHEN THERE'S EROSION, WHEN THERE'S NO SILT FENCE, WHEN THERE'S CONSTRUCTION NEXT DOOR, [00:50:03] WHEN IT AFFECTS THEM. SO WE CAN'T HAVE THE ORDINANCE OVER HERE SAYING THIS WAS ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE. AND THEN OVER HERE WE GET THE COMPLAINT. IF WE DON'T FOLLOW OUR OWN ORDINANCE, WE'RE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY ABOUT WHY WE ARE, LET'S SAY, FLOODING OR HAVING EROSION ONTO AN ADJACENT LOT. OKAY, I'M GOING TO STOP IT RIGHT HERE. THERE COULD BE A POSSIBILITY THAT WE BRING THIS WORKSHOP BACK UP AT A LATER DATE. OKAY. WE'RE FINISHED TONIGHT. OKAY. DID Y'ALL HAVE FUN? IT'S THE HOUSEWIVES OF NAGDCA. * This transcript was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.